Read any business magazine and you’ll discover a multitude of examples of companies that secured profitable, growing market positions because their visionary leaders challenged the conventional rules of how an industry works. The leaders’ fresh perspectives resulted in winning business model innovations in industry after industry.
Netflix ousts Blockbuster. Starbucks creates a rapidly growing revenue engine that every local coffee shop missed and is poised to steal share from bland-tasting Maxwell House and Nescafé on grocery store shelves. Amazon disrupts not just booksellers Barnes & Noble and Borders, but also Target and Walmart, with its no-bricks-and-mortar business model strategy.
All too often, leaders of established businesses act like horses pulling carriages in New York City’s Central Park, wearing blinders to avoid distractions. Which brings me, a political independent, to the narrow thinking of Wisconsin’s Republican Gubernatorial candidates on high-speed rail transit connecting Milwaukee, Madison, Chicago and, eventually, Minneapolis, St. Paul. The two candidates are loudly against the investment at the federal and state levels, while their Democratic opponent favors this investment.
The Republican candidates, along with other opponents of high-speed rail, argue that no Wisconsinite is going to take the train to go see his mother or make a client visit in another city, because cars are faster and more convenient. As a result, the trains will be a financial disaster. These critics are thinking about the future with eyes on past and current behavior. They are judging the behavior of the current workforce, not thinking about those who elected to not to live in Wisconsin or how our workforce will change as the baby boom cohort retires.
As a result, critics are missing the entire argument for why trains are essential to Wisconsin’s future.
Wake up Scott Walker and Mark Neumann. Beyond the close to $1 billion of needed economic stimulus, the trains will make our two largest metro areas a more attractive location to live, work, and play, drawing outsiders to our region and slowing if not reversing the “brain drain” that is worrying the majority of people in the state.
Ask my 20-year old daughter out of the blue about the train, and she says, “Awesome, Mom. I’d have access to jobs in three cities if I moved back here from Maine after college.” Generation X and Y are moving to large urban areas, where multiple job changes within an industry or profession are possible without disrupting childcare, schooling, professional networks or friendships. Milwaukee and Madison both fall short in meeting this location consideration, but with a train connecting our two leading university centers to Chicago, we’d be considered more often as a location for careers.
We’d not just create a more level playing field by connecting our cities, we might secure a competitive advantage, as the affordability of our cities and ease of living in Wisconsin sure beat that of L.A. and many other large labor markets that are drawing recent graduates and young couples ready to start a family.
Our expanded market would not just be large enough to build careers within, we’d also create an expanded market for businesses to sell their products and services within.
In addition, the effort to transform the Milwaukee airport area into the Midwest’s distribution hub would benefit from the high-speed rail extension, as would tourism if we were smart like the Europeans and created biking, hiking and sightseeing tours connecting our cities. Summerfest could expand, students trying to complete overcrowded degree programs would have more options, and the list of beneficiaries goes on and on.
Many readers may not know or remember that Wisconsin lost many of its community-enhancing corporate headquarters starting in the 1950s as a result of acquisitions by out-of-state companies, a loss that has lowered our per capita personal income relative to the nation and many surrounding states. The companies that lost their independence to forward-thinking competitors often did so because Wisconsin leaders assumed drivers of industry success would not change. They and our political leaders at the time were blind to size becoming a key success factor, forcing consolidation in industry after industry. In their conscious and unconscious decisions to stay small and conservative, they failed to conserve jobs and income growth in our state.
Let’s not do it again.
Kay Plantes is an MIT-trained economist, business strategy consultant, columnist and author. She served as chief economist for former Wisconsin Republican Gov. Lee Dreyfus. Plantes provides expertise in business model innovation, strategic leadership and smart economic policies. She resides in Madison, Wis., and Oslo, Norway.




63 Comments
Good points Kay, but the train we are in the process of constructing is not a high speed train. It does not significantly improve the commute time between Milwaukee and Madison. What we are in the process of building is a White Elephant that will just add it's operating cost to our state overhead.
I wish the trains were high speed! What you're missing about consumer choice is your productivity on a train versus driving, not to mention safety of using cell phone and texting on a train versus driving, irrespective of speed. Chicago trains are not high speed, but are heavily used for commuting. Also remember that we are looking at commuting times today. Madison's growth even without trains will make the roads much more crowded, increasing commuting time. I've had a number of weeks where I drove to Milwaukee multiple times.
The issue here is not about one-time trip choices. The issue is with a productive way to commute, will more people locate or remain in a larger labor and goods market?
@JV, I am pretty sure 40 minutes to Madison and 3 hours to Mpls by train is a lot faster than 1 hour 20 min and 6 hours, without traffic, respectively. You also lack the foresight of the ability to consistently upgrade the trains speed and right of way over time. And before you pull out the 'it only goes 79mph' card, that is only for two years before increasing to 110. I'd like to see you legally hit 110mph in your car on the way to Madison (the speed at which the aforementioned travel times are obtainable).
John identifies a key problem with the train/rail discussion. Trying to get a definition from any entity (political party/state or local government/local or national press) of what really constitutes high-speed rail is like getting the Wisconsin Department of Transportation to sit down and talk openly and honestly about what they are actually up to...
The critics are thinking of the people that are going to have to pay for it. There are many more issues than not having a train that could make our metro areas attractive and they need to be addressed first. A train will not attract college graduates and young families. Generation X does not trust the previous generation to make decisions for them and Generation Y is not interested in being dictated to but rather wants freedoms that they do not believe they have to earn or pay for.
Don't take this personally, but Oslo and Madison? Do you know what the rest of the world is like? Will you be using the train while you are here when it will cost 3 times as much and take twice as long than if you drove?
It is true that the Midwest Rail System, of which the Milwaukee to Madison expansion is a part, will not be "world class" high speed. That would be much more expensive, such as the system authrorized by the voters in California, for example. Yet Amtrak between Milwaukee and Chicago is not "high speed" but is being chosen by more and more riders, even without high gasoline prices currently. Plans for the Midwest Rail System do call for higher speeds than the current ones.
Instead of focusing just on Milwaukee to Madison, as Kay Plantes suggests we need to look at the longer-term bigger picture about Wisconsin being competitive.
Here's an intresting anecdote. A local entrepreneur had a business plan and a need for $5 million in capital. Potential investors from Seattle were very interested, willing to invest $2.5 million and paid for research on greater Milwaukee. Their strong preference was to start the company in Chicago, possibly start it in Madison, but they had no interest in Milwaukee. The plan called for hiring 60 young IT and creative design professionals in 120 days and they did not want to take the risk of doing so in Milwaukee. A primary reason was the concern about transportation for these young people - generations X & Y - around Milwaukee and even between Chicago and Milwaukee (the KRM would have been a solution). So the business ultimately started in Chicago - 200 feet from a train station.
The basic point is that because southeast Wisconsin is inadequate in its overall transportation structure versus other metropolitan areas, the start-up capital and the jobs went somewhere else.
It is interesting to see that the mayor of St. Paul, MN, a commissioner of Ramsey County, a mayor of an eastern suburb of the Twin Cities, a MN state legislator, the MN DOT and others are collaborating to do a study, funded by $1.4 million of federal funds, to decide what is the optimal combination of transportation modes along the I-94 corridor between the Twin Cities and Eau Claire, which is where they anticipate that the Midwest Rail System will run. The Twin Cities is growing, in spite of also having high taxes - we are not. But they are also taking a collaborative approach in looking at the future.
In looking at Wisconsin, we need to develop a collaborative plan about future transportation needs so that we will be economically competitive. Otherwise we will just continue to have disparate and emotion-filled arguments about different and uncoordinated alternatives as we do now, where decisions seem to be arbitrarily and independently made. By that I'm referring to the current unconnected discussions the Midwest Rail expansion, the downtown Milwaukee streetcar, the shrinking Mke Co Transit System and the foundering Southeast Wisconsin Regional Transit Authority. A strong collaboration of business, government and political leadership with a shared vision toward a long-term goal of economic competitiveness are needed.
Is there an opportunity for those running for office?
Now we are looking at rail to save us from people driving and texting? Kay, let's create a great job market before we go off on squandering money that could help generate a great job market. Why stop at asking our 20 year olds what will make Wisconsin better? Let's ask 14 year olds, and even 6 year old kids what would make them stay here. This is how MIT trained economists make informed decisions? This is a bad idea the the "new" ideas defending it are proving just how lame it is? Wake up Scott Walker and Mark Neumann, and sharpen up your spikes before you jump all over this economic disaster.
Kay,
Your analogy starts with business leaders that create a better mouse trap. Good. However you are espousing a reality of government hoping a nice idea will catch on. When the best descriptors available are 'might', 'may', 'could' and 'possibly'; a good manager will always instruct their team to start the research. You know this.
So let's do so. In 2008 our federal DOT studied each country invested in high speed rail. Which for the record has no definition but is generally accepted to be capable of 150 mph. The subsidy levels for European Rail is greater than even Amtrak
http://www.amtrakoig.gov/%28S%28iv1ihg55esskr145ao5mwh21%29%29/Reports%5CE-08-02-042208.PDF
Yet with more advanced and long established equipment and route; Europe captures only 6.1% of the surface transportation needs on the train. Europe is far better in population density to take advantage of a rail system. And yet; not so much.
But let's look beyond the numbers. After all there are more important concepts than money. Should the government be allowed to steal a person's land through eminent domain? Most people would say no. Then why should the government be allowed to steal away a person's successful business?
You may or may not realize this but there IS mass transit between Madison and Milwaukee. It is GREAT service. Very cost effective. But alas privately owned and successfully run. Your 20 year old has probably used it. Badger Bus. And they PAY taxes rather than pull money out of our pockets.
So let's analyze. Should we allow the government to spend our money to take away successful businesses? Should we also allow them to do this at a far greater expense - with our money? Badger Bus actually pays taxes which LOWERS each of our tax burdens. And much like your initial analogy; if there was a successful rail business here that is beyond the bus; the private sector will get it right more often than the government's proven ability to get it wrong.
With regard to the Chicago-Milwaukee-Madison analogy; really? It is worth considering that Milwaukee was excluded from consideration based on the poor schools, corrupt politicians and rampant crime. There would be surprise by most if the site survey team doing that research got as far as transportation when running through their site survey checklist.
Food for thought.
Please stop making sense! You're contradicting the talk radio instructions the sheeple have been given. Only in Wisconsin could high-speed rail be seen as anything other than an economic investment. Their minds are made up, and no logic can contradict their talk show propaganda.
I'll wake up to the benefits when you wake up to the outrageous costs of this crazy train! Your fearmongering is hardly helpful. Employers re going to exit en masse if we don't build a slightly-faster-than-car rail between two self-important cities that already have a wonderful highway?! If we have to build it, it should do something no road has done – cut an angle from Milwaukee to Superior, connecting balmy Milwaukee to the Great White North. Putting up another mirror-on-the-wall for those tow cities to admire themselves won't make Wisconsin fairest of them all.
A few thoughts:
- The Milwaukee to Chicago Amtrak line is experiencing some success because that train can get you to Chicago faster and less expensively than a trip by car. I believe the travel time from the Airport station is one hour and twenty minutes and even if you tack 40 minutes on to get to the station and your final destination it is going to beat the car trip on most occasions. Given that the cost of parking in Chicago is at least $35 for any duration of time the train also becomes the cheaper option.
- We are different than Europe. Europe has a much more dense population that we do here in the Milwaukee/Madison area. Most of the cities in Europe are very difficult to get around by in a car. They are much older cities and it is evident that they were not designed for cars. Therefore trains make a lot of sense there, but not so much in our area.
- How often could your 20 year old afford to ride this train at $66 per round trip? In my opinion the price is too high to make enough people jump out of their car and into the train.
I think I understand where all this pro train stuff comes from. The writers go to cities like Portland, Seattle etc. and come away impressed by their mass transit system and wonder why we can't have the same. They gloss over the fact that these cities have good mass transit mainly due to outstanding bus systems (Seattle especially) and that the metropolitan areas are often double our size. They often overlook the fact that the downtown areas in these communities are much more dense as well.
For whatever reason Milwaukee has chosen a development plan that is much more spread out over the Metropolitan area, None of our attractions are bunched next to each other. The Bradley Center is nowhere near Miller Park. The Harley Museum isn't close to the Art Museum. We have very little development on the lake. In short, we do not have the type of concentration that makes traffic a nightmare and most people will stick to their cars.
I just don't see enough people wanting to ride this particular train.
Tim, thank you for demonstrating that the adults should be making the decisions on this. Go out and play now. Run along. The Emperor really has no clothes, now matter who your mental master is.
I love all the economic growth and activity around the train station in downtown Milwaukee. If I would ever take a train, my first thoughts are to get our of the station and go to where I'm going, not stay their and spend money. My point, no way their is economic growth because of a train.
Thankfully, there's nothing these idiots can do to stop the federal high-speed train system! No matter what the radio goons or the governor candidates say, it will be built, and it will connect Wisconsin to the rest of the Midwest. They get hung up on the Milwaukee-to-Madison part of it. They miss the point. That's not how people will use it. It will be used to connect Milwaukee and Madison to the Twin Cities, to Chicago, to St Louis, to Indianapolis, to Cleveland and beyond.
Bill, don't be so sure about that. Contracts can and will be broken. I find it to be very criminal of Doyle as a lame duck Govenor to be pushing this agenda.
This slow-speed train to Madison is more analogous to Netflix deciding to open video stores, it is outdated, inconvenient, limiting in choices, and inefficient.
As to the train causing people and businesses to relocate to Milwaukee, Wow. How many businesses are moving a large number of people on a regular basis back and forth between the two cities now? Are the moving between just downtown Milwaukee and downtown Madison? If not, are they willing to rent cars or hire taxis to get to their destinations? Where is the list? How many people per day? I'm sure before Netflix, Starbucks, Amazon or any other for-profit business spent $800 million of its money on anything, they would have some thorough research and numbers on projected demand. Where is it?
When Harley makes its decision in a few weeks to relocate its production out of metro Milwaukee, will a train to Madison factor into its decision? Did a train factor into Mercury Marine's, Thomas Industries', U-Line's, or Republic Airlines' (Midwest's) location decisions? I do know that what is preeminent in their location decisions are operating costs. And one of the primary factors relating to operating costs is taxes, something this train will cause to increase here in Wisconsin.
The funny thing about all this is that the joke is on these conservatives who are so gullible that they actually believe Walker or Neumann can do anything to stop high-speed rail. They can't. They only made it a political issue in their race to the right to appease the Tea Party freaks. They know good and well that it's a done deal, even if the state is backward enough to elect one of them.
Mike, please explain why you think it can't be stopped instead of just making crude remarks.
Well, you wouldn't know of this if your main source of information is talk radio. But by the time the next governor is in office, half the $800 million already will be spent, and private contracts will be signed and much work will be done. There's no way the state can turn back. It would cost hundreds of millions, plus all the lawsuits that would come.
It's fascinating that there are many other states/regions that feel they have been left out of this first round and would gladly take what some in Wisconsin want to turn away.
Bob Johnson: Good post, man. You make sense.
I think the mistake many of you are making is so readily assuming without question that, somehow, people like Kay's daughter have some kind of God given right to live far, far away from their jobs and expect the rest of us to provide them a cheap, fast, convenient, comfortable commute where they can play on their cell phones.
If I choose to live within walking distance of my job (which I do) and I have to pay high rent to do so (which I do), do I have the right to require you to pay part of my rent? Of course not. That's the choice I made so I suck it up and pay the consequences.
If I don't want to pay a high rent, I can move somewhere with a lower cost of living. Then, I can either bite the bullet with higher commuting cost (and time) or find a job closer to home. But, that might pay less. If I do the latter, should I expect the rest of you to supplement my income. Of course not.
Kay's daughter, and people like her, need to learn that they make their choices and they should suffer the consequences as well as enjoy the benefits.
When we spend huge sums of tax money so that a relative handful of people can commute longer distances without paying the full expense, we are just enabling selfish behavior.
I must say I'm surprised that an MIT trained economist can so readily overlook that.
As for those who criticize Scott Walker for daring to oppose the (aptly named) "boondoggle", check the polls. According to RealClearPolitics dot com, Walker has bested Barrett in 14 out of the last 14 polls, by an average of 7.5%! Perhaps he's the one who has his finger on the Wisconsin's pulse!
CA, in expanding their passenger rail service, first constructed and added to their *existing* conventional-speed rail services. Here in WI, I think it would be wise to do the same. TGV service usually has a construction cost on the order of $ 39 million per mile. How will any poster or opponent here know what a potential rider will do, or why a rider would ride, unless they establish a "starter" conventional- or incrementally-higher-speed service to start with?
Excellent points Kay!And Tom Rave's account of the local entrepreneur is a perfect example for the opportunity cost we all pay as a region each day we fail to embrace rail projects.
Wisconsin is incredibly fortunate to have beaten out most other states who competed fiercely for a share of this funding.
High Speed Rail will provide an option for fast, comfortable and convenient transportation however its even greater power will be demonstrated in its ability to revive Wisconsin's econonomy by serving as a catalyst for attracting new investment in our state.
As we struggle to stay afloat in this troubled economy, let's be sure not to lose our grip on this precious life line that's been offered to us.
John Dough: You just made the perfect argument against "free"ways, at least on rail there is a usage fee.
@John Dough: Your comments are ironic, given that right now your tax dollars go to subsidize the highway system (yes, drivers pay a gas tax, but the federal highway trust fund has been bankrupt for a few years now, and regularly gets propped up with general fund revenues).
@Tim haering: If you want to talk about "outrageous" costs, how about the fact that rebuilding the Marquette Interchange (which covers all of, what, ten square blocks?) cost the same as this train will cost to build.
I recall noting, about 8-10 years ago, when SEWRPC and WisDOT were looking at rebuilding I-94 in SE Wisconsin, that the 100 miles or so that they wanted to rebuild would cost as much as a 3000-mile system of 79-to-110 mph trains, stretching from Cleveland to Minneapolis, Omaha to Detroit, Indy to Chicago, to St. Louis/Kansas City, etc.
I've never understood how anti-rail became a religion in Wisconsin. Maybe because there really isn't much better to do up there. Elsewhere, the antis are being proven wrong.
Case in point: about 7 years ago, a new rail service was started in the Northeast, connecting Boston, MA, and Portland, ME. Portland, Maine, has a population of all of 64,000 people, which is 1/4 the size of Madison. The only city of any significant size on that route is Boston, with a population of around 600,000. Compare that to this route, which has Chicago on one end (the third largest city in the country), a Boston-sized city in the Middle (Milwaukee), and a city about half the size of Milwaukee on the other end (and that's just for now; extend the route to St. Paul/Minneapolis, and you'll have even more people to ride and more places to go).
So, if a route to Portland, Maine, can get nearly 1300 people/day (475,000 riders per year), then common sense will tell you that the Madison service will serve considerably more. (And for those that may not be aware, the Boston-Portland train isn't high speed either, it maxes out at 79 mph).
Jesse,
Ha! Wrong. No doubt, you've heard that myth so often, you actually believe it.
If I travel on a freeway, I'm traveling alongside hundreds or thousands of other highway users and we are all sharing the cost, or close to it. You, as a train rider and you as a taxpayer don't pay a penny for my highway. In fact, highway users pay slightly more than their costs.
Train riders, on the other hand, require a subsidy that averages 18.65 cents per passenger-mile.
"Free"ways aren't free but they are paid for by users. Trains aren't free, either, but they're subsidized to the hilt. Train riders get a mostly free ride.
(Source: "Federal Subsidies to Passenger Transportation" Google it. The report was done in 2004 by order of Congress and it was so embarrassing that Congress never ordered another one.)
Wow, go away for a few days from a blog and look at the commentary raised. Great points everyone about the need to connect the train to the rest of the transportation system. Denver has done just that and that's what makes their system a great economic development tool – it is part of a larger economic development plan which Hefty and others correctly state is missing in our state.
RE: There are other economic development tools that we need. You bet, you're 100% right. The train is not the silver bullet. But that does not mean the train across our state is not a vitally important part of a truly regional effort to rev up Wisconsin's job creation.
The important strategic question is, "Given the federal government's decision to invest in the train, how do we make sure the train has the maximum positive impact on job-creation in out state?" That question would have us talking proactively about a truly regional economic development agenda, a 21st century transportation infrastructure and how we eliminate the geographic divides that have so undermined our state. I'd listen to Walker and Neumann more if that started to talk about THAT agenda.
Finally re: let the kids pay for the train. As an economist, I was trained to know that everything is relative. We can stand on all the libertarian principles that we want, but if other regions are creating better ways to work-live-play and we do not, tomorrow's talent will vote with their feet. The train may only attract a minority. The question is whether that minority is exactly who you want in your state to preserve it's heritage and property values.
What's amusing to me is that we have had elected Republican officials from other states, experts in economic policies, consultants, columnists and concerned citizens write on this topic endorsing this move (not to mention the MJS), and STILL the Marsh/Barks are smarter 'n all of them.
Marsh whines about "huge" amounts of tax money when in fact, this is pennies compared to the hundreds of dollars we all pay every year for highways. Facts mean nothing to these guys. Their vision extends no further than driving to Badger games. Then there's Jack Dough: "We are enabling selfish behavior." It must be nice to
be the master of your domain
Transit Rider:
That train in Maine requires an $18 subsidy by the public every time a passenger climbs aboard. Last year, in a rough economy, the Governor scrambled for almost a year to find $18 million to prop up the failure. Maine is among the two or three highest tax burden states in the country.
Your daily ridership statistic is misleading -- typical for any transit proponent. In fact, there are 650 people per day taking the Downeaster. Each of them is counted twice, once in the morning and once in the evening.
That's about one percent of Portland's population ... if they were all from Portland. But, they're not. Since riders also get on and off at several other stations, the population of those cities/towns have to be included in the denominator. In other words, the percentage of the "service area" population riding the Downeaster on a daily basis is substantially smaller than 1%.
Need I go on?
Okay, I will.
For all the hoopla over the faux success of the Downeaster, it carries less than one tenth of one percent of the person traffic that is carried by parallel highways. And, if you divide the annual passenger-miles of travel on the Downeaster by the annual passenger-miles of travel in the service area (Coastal Maine, Southeastern New Hampshire and Northeastern Mass) you get a really, really, really tiny number.
Claims of reduced congestion on I-95 and US Route 1 are totally bogus. You don't affect congestion by removing 650 cars a day (more likely, they removed buses and carpools but we'll leave that discussion for another time) from a traffic stream of almost 100,000 vehicles per day and detect any decrease in congestion.
So, please don't insult us by claiming the Downeaster has been successful. Whether measured by its impact on transportation or by its impact on state finances, the Downeaster has been a total flop. But, the politicians won't pull the plug because that would be admitting the mistake. And, the 650 riders? To them it's a success. After all, they're commuting for 20 cents on the dollar.
Is that what you want in WS?
John Dough: If we were to examine one road or highway, or one segment of that highway, I think I could make the same claims as you're making about the Downeaster. To wit, that the single segment carries a very small percentage of the total volume of traffic. Further, it would also support the claim that highways can be made to appear to be as expensive, if not more so, than rail service.
Kay: Good points. I can only hope that others see the value of making this investment in passenger rail now, when it is less expensive, rather than in the future, when it will be more costly.
Mr. Welke,
Would you care to contradict ant of the points I make? One of the problems with this issue is that the proponents who write these articles only discuss vague things like economic development and that we need a balanced transporation plan. They can never specifically say why this line is a good thing and is needed.
Then most of the commenters who come on in support of the train generally criticize the intelligence of the people who are opposed and dismiss them as talk radio acolytes.
I guess when you can't win an argument you have to go after the other person's intelligence.
Bob Welke:
You say, "...this is pennies compared to the hundreds of dollars we all pay every year for highways."
Here's the difference, Bob: If you want to save hundreds of dollars every year, all you have to do is sell your car and stop buying gas. If I want to stop subsidizing a train I will never ever use, I'm out of luck.
If train riders paid 100% of the cost of the train, I would have no squabble with rail. What I resent is that people who make voluntary choices to live far away from their jobs would, with the cooperation of my government, make it mandatory for me to pay part of their commuting expenses. As my dad taught me, you made your bed, now lie in it.
I save commuting costs by living close enough to walk to work. That's partially offset by higher rent. I don't ask you to subsidize my rent. But you CHOOSE to live far away from work, for whatever your reasons, and expect me to subsidize your commuting expenses via government coercion called taxation.
It is indeed nice to be the master of my own domain and I'd like to keep it that way. I don't appreciate YOU trying to be the master of any part of MY domain. Is that so hard for you to grasp, Bob?
Oh, and re your amusement over Republicans in other states who endorse rail. That shouldn't surprise you. Some Democrats are fiscally conservative and some Republicans prostitute conservative principles to be on the receiving end of other people's money...handed out so freely by Liberals...for political gain.
Anyone who is so gutless that they sign in as "John Dough" does not merit serious consideration at all. This train will be an economic engine.
John Dough writes: "If train riders paid 100% of the cost of the train, I would have no squabble with rail. What I resent is that people who make voluntary choices to live far away from their jobs would, with the cooperation of my government, make it mandatory for me to pay part of their commuting expenses."
John, once you start paying for 100% of the highways, then and only then can you demand that rail users do the same. But the simple reality is that you aren't paying 100% of the costs of that highway you drive on.
Last year the "users" of the highways failed to pay 50% of the outlays from the Highway Trust Fund. The HTF paid out $69.616 Billion and the fuel taxes only covered $34.116B; the remaining $34.5B came out of the General fund.
Put another way, every man, women, and child in this country paid $112 without regard to whether or not they even own a car, much less can drive one. You too had $112 lifted directly from your wallet before you ever brought a gallon of gas.
Do you somehow think that those who don't own cars enjoy paying for your roads?
By the way, you're probably not paying 100% of the costs of that street in front of your house via the "user fees" either. In fact that street was most likely paid for via property tax.
Finally, regarding the Downeaster, while you may not consider it a success, most people do. In fact that's why they just qualified for more money to extend the line.
And regarding the buses, the train hasn't displaced any buses. In fact, the train station in Portland is an intermodal center where Amtrak peacefully coexists with Concord Coach lines who offers competing service to Boston. Both have more business than before they moved into the new facility.
Whoa...this liberal baiting is fun! You people get positively rabid when your fantasies are exposed.
Alan,
The HTF has been doing fine, paying for all our highway needs* for more than half a century. You know when it started to go broke? When the politicians started skimming money off the top for their pet transit projects (sometimes under the guise of "environmental" projects. The final nail in the coffin (to date) was the decline in gasoline sales as cars got more efficient. A tax increase per gallon would take care of that.
(* Note that I said "highway" needs, not "local road" needs. Rail projects do not compete with the road in front of my house. They compete with highways...primarily Interstate highways. When you people start proposing rail service that comes to my door, then we'll talk about the rationale of comparing with how the road in front of my house is financed.)
Since you seem to have all the numbers in front of you, why don't you do this? Compare *all* the money that has gone into the HTF since 1956 to all the money that has been disbursed from it. Then, come back and report to us.
Meanwhile, I'll do the same for passenger rail. We'll compare results.
If the ratio for rail is better than the ratio for highways, I'll support rail. Will you do likewise if you're wrong?
Secondly, if you compare the population that uses highways -- i. e., "almost everybody" -- with the population who pay General Fund taxes, any subsidies are from the more well-to-do to the less well-to-do. Not so for rail. Taxes are taken from the same taxpayer population but filtered up to the most well-to-do...to people who could afford to pay their own way.
Back to the Downeaster: Would you believe Maine got $30 million from the feds to provide train service to 50 round trip passengers per day? That's $700,000 per passenger (plus the ever popular annual subsidies). Does that make any sense to you at all, Alan?
It doesn't take "most people" to consider rail a success to give away lots of government money without any hope of return on investment. All it takes is a handful of liberals in power. That's why the next election is so important.
Anne, your economic engine will burn hundred dollar bills for fuel, by the truckload.
Mr. Bark: the reason I don't refute your points is because they have been refuted...or at least responded to....over and over again here and in other publications. But ok, let's take a few from this particular discussion.
If the topic was a commuter rail connection to Madison, your points about driving to Chicago and population and roads in Europe might be valid. But we're not. Read the article. We're discussing 'high speed rail transit connecting Milwaukee, Madison, Chicago and eventually Minneapolis St Paul."
We are talking about a link in a regional network. It's got nothing to do with where tourist attractions are located in Milwaukee. Your attempt to frame this discussion based on these such comparisons is erroneous. Your argument comes down to your last line "I just don't see enough people wanting to ride this particular train." This is the same thinking that our friend Badger Bill Marsh uses when he wastes space to tell us how he'd rather take his car to go see football games.
So okay. No comment about intelligence. No comment about talk radio. These are your points. I believe they are relevant to a different discussion. In my view, putting rail in as opposed to continually widening and repairing freeways is cheaper, lessens our dependence upon foreign oil, encourages growth and will positively contribute to the transformation of the midwest in terms of the new global economy.
Mr. Welke,
Let's assume that it's the connection to the Twin Cities that will make this train worthwhile. A few questions that should be answered:
- How much will the Madison/Twin Cities line cost to build?
- How quickly will one be able to get to the Twin Cities from Milwaukee?
- How much will the ride cost?
- What improvements need to be made to each cities transit to help people get to their final destination in an effecient manner?
In other words, will the train to the Twin Cities save people time and money to entice them out of their cars? In my mind it needs to in order to be a worthwhile expenditure of money.
The difference we have is one of opinion. I don't see the line as one people will use. You have a different opinion.
Guessing true high speed trains will need new rail laid. So are we looking at another $1 billion within 5 years?
John Dough writes: "Whoa...this liberal baiting is fun! You people get positively rabid when your fantasies are exposed."
Strike 1. You're talking to a man who voted for both Reagan and Bush senior.
John Dough writes: "The HTF has been doing fine, paying for all our highway needs* for more than half a century."
Strike 2. The HTF has been busy laying out the money for years, but not all the money in the HTF came from the "users" and it didn't cover our needs either.
If the HTF had been meeting our needs, then the studies done on all of our bridges shortly after I-35 dropped into the river would not have found more than $200 Billion in work needed to return them to a state of good repair. And much of that work should have been done 10 to 20 years ago. I don't even think we have an estimate for what's needed for the ground based portions of our highways, which of course represent the bulk of the miles.
Additionally if the HTF had been paying for all of our highway needs right from the beginning, the President Eisenhower would have not needed to sell the Interstate Highway idea as something that was needed for our military in order to get funding passed by Congress.
John Dough writes: "You know when it started to go broke? When the politicians started skimming money off the top for their pet transit projects (sometimes under the guise of "environmental" projects. The final nail in the coffin (to date) was the decline in gasoline sales as cars got more efficient."
Strike 3. You can go see where every dollar laid out by the HTF has been spent. There is no skimming.
And actually the worse crisis came when the Republican controlled Congress passed the current 5 year plan for our highways, and despite pleas from the George W Bush White House not to pass it, spent more money on highways than would come in.
Now I do agree that part of the problem was when George H W Bush redirected in 1990 2.5 cents from the fuel tax into the General Fund. President Clinton increased that amount to 4.3 cents. In 1997, the Taxpayer Relief Act redirected that 4.3 cents back to the HTF.
However, the TRA did not redirect the 4.3 cents on fuel that the freight RR's had been paying into the HTF for years. One of the major reasons that the RR's wanted to dump passenger service, since they were being forced to subsidize their competition, the truck. So when George H W Bush sent that RR tax over to the General fund, he in effect took away a steady stream of cash to the HTF; one that was not returned by the TRA.
John Dough writes: "A tax increase per gallon would take care of that."
It will help for a while, agreed. But it's not a long term solution unfortunately. And good luck getting any increase passed, much less the 70 cents that one recent UC Davis study suggested might actually be needed before the users are actually paying for the roads. That 70 cents by the way is a mix of Federal and state increases.
John Dough writes: "(* Note that I said "highway" needs, not "local road" needs. Rail projects do not compete with the road in front of my house. They compete with highways...primarily Interstate highways. When you people start proposing rail service that comes to my door, then we'll talk about the rationale of comparing with how the road in front of my house is financed.)"
Strike 4. Yes, Amtrak & commuter rail compares to highways. However, light rail & heavy rail compares to streets & avenues.
And my remark was really intended as an aside.
John Dough writes: "Since you seem to have all the numbers in front of you, why don't you do this? Compare *all* the money that has gone into the HTF since 1956 to all the money that has been disbursed from it. Then, come back and report to us."
Here, you can start with these links:
http://www.houstontomorrow.org/livability/story/txdot-no-road-pays-for-itself/
http://subsidyscope.com/transportation/highways/funding/
Please pay particularly close attention to the graph at the second link.
John Dough writes: "Back to the Downeaster: Would you believe Maine got $30 million from the feds to provide train service to 50 round trip passengers per day? That's $700,000 per passenger (plus the ever popular annual subsidies). Does that make any sense to you at all, Alan?"
Believe it; I told you about it. And that's a 40 year investment that will also help to speed freight movement too. Additionally, it's but one step in further extending the line deeper into Maine and to larger cities. And the estimate of 50 riders per day is also way low.
Contrast that with the $69.616 Billion that went into the roads and will only last 5 to 10 year at most.
John Dough writes: "It doesn't take "most people" to consider rail a success to give away lots of government money without any hope of return on investment. All it takes is a handful of liberals in power. That's why the next election is so important."
Great, so we'll elect a bunch of conservatives that will once again ignore the President when he tells them that they are outspending the income to the HTF. Great, so we'll elect a bunch of conservatives that will once again ignore the President when he tells them that they are outspending the income to the HTF. Or maybe we could get another bridge to nowhere.
Or maybe we could actually get lucky and elect another Ronald Reagan, the man who signed the bill creating the Mass Transit Fund that helps to fund local rail & bus projects because he could see that we can't keep building more highways and wider highways, since we have neither the money nor the land to do so.
Unfortunately the argument by Kay and others that we should look at the larger picture damages the rail concept even further. Round trip to Madison is expected at $66. Then MN would extrapolate to roughly $132.00 round trip. Flights from MKE to MN are selling for $128 with taxes and surcharges. I don't know anyone that would spend more money to sit 4 hours on a train rather than 1 hour on an airplane (flight phobics possibly).
Strike one to borrow from Alan.
Every independent study performed for the last 5 years to quantify ANY economic growth attributed to rail has shown no difference. And in each circumstance where original claims of growth were espoused it was shown that the corresponding TIF's and subsidies for businesses around rail heads was the impetus.
Strike 2.
Finally; please pardon the condescending tone; but what part of 'WE HAVE MASS TRANSIT IN PLACE ALREADY' are people not getting their heads around? I believe we have two very good bus lines between Madison and Milwaukee. Better service than train. Privately run so they have to earn each and every customer. And they PAY taxes; not suck taxes. They help the environment. They are efficient. And Badger Bus takes you right to camp Randall.
Strike 3 (again, credit to Alan).
Honestly, we keep reading that people pointing out the negatives of the train are not 'getting' it. If the proponents would take a step back and TRULY look at the big picture they should be able to see the issues.
Again pardon the condescending tone but it's like kids at the dinner table. "I want a train for dinner".
"No dear, we are having bus for dinner."
"But I want a train!!!"
"Honey, we can't afford a train; daddy's hours at work were cut and mommy's trying to find work"
"But I want a train!"
"Sweetheart; the bus is good for you. It saves fuel, it helps the economy, I helps the environment, it reduces congestion and we don't need to worry about politics and it pays taxes."
"But I waaaant a train!!!; stamping feet."
"Dear, you'll need to be happy with your bus. Maybe someday when money isn't so tight we can afford a train. But you are just making mommy and daddy sad right now. Go do your homework."
Bob Johnson writes: "Unfortunately the argument by Kay and others that we should look at the larger picture damages the rail concept even further. Round trip to Madison is expected at $66. Then MN would extrapolate to roughly $132.00 round trip. Flights from MKE to MN are selling for $128 with taxes and surcharges. I don't know anyone that would spend more money to sit 4 hours on a train rather than 1 hour on an airplane (flight phobics possibly)."
First, no, it doesn't extrapolate that the fare will be double from MSP. That doesn't happen anyplace else, no reason to assume that it would here. For example, the low bucket fare for Acela from NY to Philly is $88. One way fare from NY to DC is only $135, clearly not double.
Second, once one factors in the time to get from downtown to the airport, throw in the times needed to clear security, and the time to get from the airport to downtown, the trip times would be similar. And on the train a business person can be far more productive than on a plane. For example, they can make phone calls, send emails, and actually spread out a bit to get some work done.
So people will indeed ride the train; and even if some don't, it still won't matter to you as you'll still be subsidizing those that do remain on the plane.
Bob Johnson writes: "Every independent study performed for the last 5 years to quantify ANY economic growth attributed to rail has shown no difference. And in each circumstance where original claims of growth were espoused it was shown that the corresponding TIF's and subsidies for businesses around rail heads was the impetus."
May I please suggest that you start looking for some different independent studies? Here, you could start with the following.
http://www.growsmartmaine.org/blog/?p=159
Bob Johnson writes: "Finally; please pardon the condescending tone; but what part of 'WE HAVE MASS TRANSIT IN PLACE ALREADY' are people not getting their heads around? I believe we have two very good bus lines between Madison and Milwaukee. Better service than train. Privately run so they have to earn each and every customer. And they PAY taxes; not suck taxes. They help the environment. They are efficient. And Badger Bus takes you right to camp Randall."
I hope that you'll pardon my tone now, but which part of "Badger is most certainly subsidized. They run their buses on the subsidized highways enjoying the fruits of all of our taxes." did you not understand when I posted that in response to a similar comment that you made on the "Republicans should get onboard" blog?
Unless Badger is somehow not operating their buses on our roads to get from Madison to Milwaukee, then they are most certainly being subsidized since we are pumping massive subsidies into our roads and Badger is enjoying those roads.
Finally, while a bus is indeed better for the environment than say 40 more cars on the road, the train is even better than the bus.
Bob Johnson writes: "Honestly, we keep reading that people pointing out the negatives of the train are not 'getting' it. If the proponents would take a step back and TRULY look at the big picture they should be able to see the issues."
Bob, unfortunately I believe that it's you who isn't taking a step back and looking at the big picture. It's the roads & highways that we can no longer continue to afford. Not to mention that in many places we don't have the room to either build more or widen the existing ones.
This country can't afford to continue taking $34.5 Billion out of the General fund for our highways. And that's just the Federal subsidy!
Please consider the following; and I admit right up front that this isn't an exact parallel to what we're discussing here:
Back in the early 90's Salt Lake City started considering light rail as an alternative form of transportation to the bus. They started construction on their first line in 1996. Today, they move almost as many people by light rail as they do by bus. Yet light rail has saved the city more than $300 Million over the 12 year period from '96 through 2007.
Heading over to the National Transit Database and pulling both the capital and operating costs for that 12 year period, we find that SLC spent $1.009 Billion on its buses and only $715.04 Million on its light rail system.
Now in the interests of full disclosure, I will tell you that SLC embarked on a major expansion of their light rail system in 2008. The capital expenses from that will eventually push LRT ahead of the buses in total costs for a while. But with the huge disparity in operating costs, $109M annually for buses and $27M for LRT, buses will take the lead once again as the more costly form of transit.
Now again, I agree that there are difference between the above example and what we're discussing here. But the simple reality is that rail is cheaper to operate. Further, any comparisons to Badger aren't really helpful. Badger does not serve the major destination of Chicago. Badger does not serve the major destination of Minn/St. Paul; at least on a daily basis. Whereas this train will serve Chicago right out of the box, and eventually will add MSP. So claims that "we already have mass transit in place" are false, as mass transit does not exist in the form of a one seat ride via Badger bus.
Please remember that this train is about far more than Madison and Milwaukee. This train will keep going to Chicago and increase the number of frequencies already running between MKE & Chicago.
Bob Johnson: you don't do yourself justice! Condescending? Sure! But what about arrogant, overbearing, egotistic and supercilious? TRULY having children at the dinner table burp up your leakage are worthy of better adjectives than simply condescending. Give it some thought, Bob.
You can do it.
Michael Bark:
How much does it cost to build a four-lane free way to Minneapolis and maintain it every year?
Who pays for that and how much per year?
How quickly can I get to Minneapolis vs. a high speed train?
What improvements do we have to make every year to our highways and bridges? (LIke, um the latest on the Marquette interchange?)
And let me add a few:
What will the price of gas be in 5 years?
Why do we keep propping up middle Eastern governments with our dependence upon oil?
How have freeways helped the midwest to become competitive in the new global economy?
And why do you think a valid argument is simply to ask questions and imply negatives?
Bob, thank you for the call out and pointing out my poor expression of frustration.
Alan, you bring good ideas, thank you. We'll never know what the cost will be for the tickets. The Downeaster mentioned earlier is heavily subsidized to keep their ticket prices low per the article you note. I believe Milwaukee to Madison is comparable to Badger Bus. When you discuss the Chicago to MN then the airline is the competitor and the train still loses in time and cost. The bus company not only pays taxes; like all commercial companies they pay higher road fees than automobiles helping not hurting the average driver.
We'll also never know the cost of our roads because simple maintenance was never done by our state as the money was constantly raided. I saw an example of this today driving under the hwy41/45 overpass on Capitol. The bridges iron work under the bridge had holes rusted though the metal. Tell a bucket of paint every few years could have prevented this. Now we'll pay to have the whole bridge replaced.
In following some of the links from the article you noted; the Downeaster just took another $35 million to repair existing tracks for Amtrak (the operator) and make an extension. Who would foot the bill for the track maintenance if the Fed did not grant them to money?
To Bob W's point the roads are more expensive but they are used many more times over making them far more efficient than the train. Also the road can be used by everyone that pays for them; the train can not. Also the numbers assume that the train replaces a train riders vehicle; which it will not. So it is an added expense to an existing expense NOT a substitution.
The Downeaster has run for almost 10 years. They boast record breaking ridership in 2010. Sounds great until you do the math and realize their record year after 10 years is 1200 people per day. Roughly 1% of I94 volume. And nearly all those people in our system will still need to take their car to the train station.
I realize you would like me and other opponents to 'get with it' but the numbers keep screaming that we are not even close. Not even in the same ball park.
You won't believe me but I love riding a train. Scenic, relaxing and I don't get motion sick so long as I face the direction of travel. But it will never be an economic or environmental discussion that will prove its worth. And this discussion does not address the inflexibility of trains. You can change a bus route. You can almost never change a train route.
Mr. Welke,
In answer to your questions:
- I don't know how much a 4 lane freeway connecting Milwaukee to the Twin Cities would be. However, the proposed redo of the zoo interchange is expected to be $2 billion dollars. That's a lot of cash until you consider 350,000 cars a day use that interchange. Yes, that's more money than what the train will cost, but even you have to concede that the interchange services far more people than the train could hope to.
- I believe that all freeways should be paid via a tax on gasoline or a toll. For the most part they are. The users should pay the freight.
- That's the big question how quickly will one be able to get to Milwaukee to the Twin Cities on the train, Given the speeds they are talking about I would guess it will take at least 4 hours. By the time you get to and from the station and to your final destination a car ride takes about the same time. If we are talking mass transit will it be more effective than air travel which only takes about 2.5 hours total (security included) and costs around $120.
- I have no idea what gas will cost in 5 years. Then again, neither do you.
- Because we refuse to drill for our own oil.
- How will trains help us compete in the global economy?
My argument is that I do not think people will use this line. The reasons I think this is because it will not move people to their destination more quickly than their car and it will not do so more cheaply. The Amtrak to Chicago meets these criteria and it's not like it;s running near capacity and adding lines to handle all this demand we supposedly have for trains.
It;s also troubling to me that proponents are unable to ever list any specifics as to why this is a great idea.
Bob Johnson writes: "The Downeaster mentioned earlier is heavily subsidized to keep their ticket prices low per the article you note."
Yes, I'm not denying that it's not subsidized. That's a choice that Maine made to keep prices lower until people learn that taking the train has its advantages. In Maine, they fall short of even covering operations. However, the MKE to Chicago line actually does cover operations from the fare box. The subsidies that the state has to provide are for overhead.
And Virginia just started a new service back in October of last year to from DC to Lynchburg. It's doing so well that so far the state has not had to dip into the monies set aside to subsidize the train. Ridership is more than 150% over the estimates used to come up with the amount of money that the state would need to provide in subsidies.
Bob Johnson writes: "I believe Milwaukee to Madison is comparable to Badger Bus. When you discuss the Chicago to MN then the airline is the competitor and the train still loses in time and cost."
And again, since we're not talking about a train from Madison to MKE, Badger is not comparable. We're talking about a train that goes to Chicago. A train that after picking up people between Madison and Milwaukee and dropping some off, will pick up even more people and take them onto Chicago. Badger doesn't do that.
As for MSP, while I respect your opinion on the idea that the train loses, factual evidence proves this idea wrong. The shuttle flight from NY to DC is just under an hour. It takes Amtrak's Acela 2 hours and 45 minutes to make that run. Prices, depending on when you buy your tickets, can be lower, equal, or even higher than the airlines.
But when one factors in travel times to/from the airports, the 2 hours for security, and the ability to work on the train; Acela wins. This is why Amtrak owns something like 56% of the travel market between NY & DC.
Bob Johnson writes: "The bus company not only pays taxes; like all commercial companies they pay higher road fees than automobiles helping not hurting the average driver."
The fact that they pay taxes still doesn't change the fact that they are enjoying the subsidized highways. And while Amtrak doesn't pay taxes, their hosts do. In fact, some of the highest property tax rates around apply to the RR's right of way. And about 71% of the miles traveled by Amtrak trains are on freight RR's. The freight Co's also pay plenty of other taxes too. Canadian Pacific pays taxes to Wisconsin for the tracks that the Hiawatha's run on.
I haven't met an Interestate Highway that pays taxes.
Bob Johnson writes: "We'll also never know the cost of our roads because simple maintenance was never done by our state as the money was constantly raided. I saw an example of this today driving under the hwy41/45 overpass on Capitol. The bridges iron work under the bridge had holes rusted though the metal. Tell a bucket of paint every few years could have prevented this. Now we'll pay to have the whole bridge replaced."
I wouldn't argue this.
Bob Johnson writes: "In following some of the links from the article you noted; the Downeaster just took another $35 million to repair existing tracks for Amtrak (the operator) and make an extension. Who would foot the bill for the track maintenance if the Fed did not grant them to money?"
Bob, please forgive me if you do understand this and just misspoke, but that money isn't for "maintenance." That money is for capital improvements. If Maine wasn't considering an extension of the Downeaster, then any capital improvements would fall on the owner of those tracks. One reason that the tracks are in the shape that they are right now.
By agreeing to host the trains, PanAm RR will get improved tracks paid for by the taxpayer's that will allow them to boost their running speeds from 10 MPH to 60 MPH. In return, they'll have to run the Downeaster on time, pay for the continued maintenance of those tracks, and pay higher property taxes because of the improved tracks. And Maine will gain other things like more development and getting more trucks off the roads. Or perhaps I should really say that the trucks won't have to travel as far on the roads, saving the state on repair monies in the future.
Bob Johnson writes: "To Bob W's point the roads are more expensive but they are used many more times over making them far more efficient than the train. Also the road can be used by everyone that pays for them; the train can not. Also the numbers assume that the train replaces a train riders vehicle; which it will not. So it is an added expense to an existing expense NOT a substitution."
That's just a numbers game. If we had spent even near as much on our trains, then the reverse would be true. Heck, had we not ripped out so many of our trains' years ago, we wouldn't even need to be spending what we are now to fix that mistake.
Bob Johnson writes: "The Downeaster has run for almost 10 years. They boast record breaking ridership in 2010. Sounds great until you do the math and realize their record year after 10 years is 1200 people per day. Roughly 1% of I94 volume. And nearly all those people in our system will still need to take their car to the train station."
And the Downeaster has probably cost the taxpayer's less than 1% of the costs of I-94.
Bob Johnson writes: "You won't believe me but I love riding a train. Scenic, relaxing and I don't get motion sick so long as I face the direction of travel. But it will never be an economic or environmental discussion that will prove its worth."
Bob, I have no reason not to believe you. You are entitled to your opinions on things. I've no desire to squash that right, especially since it is one of the founding principals of our country.
Obviously I hope to change and/or sway your opinion, I won't deny that. And I certainly hope that people will at least think about things because of this discussion. But most important is making sure that people actually know the facts. There is far too much erroneous information running around in the media.
Bob Johnson writes: "And this discussion does not address the inflexibility of trains. You can change a bus route. You can almost never change a train route."
Bob, that is actually one of the best things going for a train. Business owners realize that one can't just pickup and move a train like you can with a bus. They know that they can depend on that train, either for goods or for transportation of their employees and customers, if not both even. This is why economic development follows rail lines these days.
Any pencil pusher sitting in an office who has never set foot on a bus, can decide to reroute it for any reason. Take away that bus, and the business watches it's workers and customers go away because they can no longer get there, or at least get there easily.
Michael Bark writes: "- I don't know how much a 4 lane freeway connecting Milwaukee to the Twin Cities would be. However, the proposed redo of the zoo interchange is expected to be $2 billion dollars. That's a lot of cash until you consider 350,000 cars a day use that interchange. Yes, that's more money than what the train will cost, but even you have to concede that the interchange services far more people than the train could hope to."
First, if we never do any more improvements to this train, then that $800M is a 40+ year investment. That freeway interchange will need to be rebuilt at least twice during that time, with millions more (if not billions) spent on annual maintenance.
Second, while I don't know what I-94 cost and I do freely admit that this isn't a true comparison, please consider the following. Back in 2004 Taxpayer's for Common Sense pointed out a project in California that was a bad investment for us. They pointed to a 5 mile, 6 lane extension of the 710 freeway that would cost $1.4 Billion or about $311 Million per mile.
At $311M per mile, it would have been more expensive than the entire LA Subway was and it would have moved less people than the subway. Thankfully the project was defeated.
Another on their hit list was I-405 around Seattle. This project is adding 1 lane in each direction over its 30 miles at a cost of $11 Billion in 2004 dollars. Since the project is still underway, the true final cost is as yet unknown. But at the 2004 costs, that's $1,055 per square foot of highway.
Michael Bark writes: "- I believe that all freeways should be paid via a tax on gasoline or a toll. For the most part they are. The users should pay the freight."
While I do agree, and I am a driver and car owner, are you ready for at least a 70 cents per gallon increase? That's the amount that one recent UC Davis study suggested might actually be needed.
Michael Bark writes: "- That's the big question how quickly will one be able to get to Milwaukee to the Twin Cities on the train, Given the speeds they are talking about I would guess it will take at least 4 hours. By the time you get to and from the station and to your final destination a car ride takes about the same time. If we are talking mass transit will it be more effective than air travel which only takes about 2.5 hours total (security included) and costs around $120."
As I already pointed out to Bob, that model works else where. Business people in particular, appreciate being able to keep working on the train. And by the time one adds in the flight time, security time, and travel times to/from the airports that are never downtown, even a slightly longer journey by train wins because of the increased productivity.
Michael Bark writes: "- How will trains help us compete in the global economy?"
Ask Europe, Japan, & China. They're all spending far more than us on trains and they're all competing quite nicely in the Global economy.
Michael Bark writes: "My argument is that I do not think people will use this line. The reasons I think this is because it will not move people to their destination more quickly than their car and it will not do so more cheaply. The Amtrak to Chicago meets these criteria and it's not like it;s running near capacity and adding lines to handle all this demand we supposedly have for trains."
The Hiawatha is most certainly running close to capacity on many of its trains. Yes, perhaps if you pick a run at noon you'll find seats, but try getting on the 8:00 AM out of Milwaukee. And they have most certainly been adding capacity. About a year ago all trains had 1 more car added to the consist. And just 6 years ago there were 6 roundtrips per day, except for Sunday with 5. Today there are 7 roundtrips M-S, with 6 on Sunday's.
If that's not an increase of capacity, then with respect, I don't know what you think constitutes one. And this extension of service to Madison will further increase the number of trips between MKE & Chicago.
As for your "argument", history suggests that you're wrong. That same argument has been repeated over and over again by opponents of trains. It was repeated when they started the Downeaster in Maine. Last year they had 460,000 rides taken. Illinois heard it when they doubled the number of trains a few years back. Ridership on most of the lines doubled or more. California heard it on their two corridors, and they keep adding more trains.
And Virginia just heard it regarding the new run to Lynchburg. Ridership on that new train is 150% over the estimates and so far has actually covered all of its costs. The state has not needed to dip into the pot of money set aside to subsidize it.
Michael Bark writes: "It;s also troubling to me that proponents are unable to ever list any specifics as to why this is a great idea."
Maybe they haven't been presented in a list, but with respect you've been given plenty of specifics in the discussions above. And I'm sorry to say that stating things like "I do not think that people will use this line" isn't giving any specifics either towards your contention that this is a bad idea.
BarK: thanks for the answers. I asked how much to build and maintain a 4-lane freeway and you gave me a price tag of $2 billion for a single interchange! And that's not even to build it. That's to repair and redo it. You made a great point. Then you missed it.
Your opinion on usage/pay is fine. But it's not reality.
Your speculative answers on time only indicate to me that you don't get out much.
Regarding the price of gas, well, you seem not worried about all that, all wars in Iraq and massive spills in the gulf aside. I'm sure you don't much care about any of the other problems our dependence upon oil presents. That could all be solved by drilling for our own. Long as you can fill up the old Navigator.
I guess we're pretty much done here.
Ms. Plantes states Denver is using its train system as a development tool. First off- the Denver train system is commuter rail within the metro area. Also, the Denver train system's primary impetus is due to jammed ten lane freeways caused by substantial growth in the Denver metro area. Denver's train system isn't causing the growth, the train is being built because of the growth. A substantial part of its growth is attributable to low taxes- significantly lower than those here in Wisconsin (less than $3,000 property taxes on a $500,000 house, yeah, Wisconsin is nuts). Ms. Plantes, until we have Colorado's growth, TABOR, and its level of taxes, forget the Denver analogy.
The proponents of this train keep railing about road subsidies. Please let me know how many people in our state don't use roads. We, the citizens of Wisconsin, all use roads, therefor there are no non-users that are subsidizing them. Unlike this train, which will be primarily used by people that can afford to pay their own way on the bus or via their own vehicle. But somehow all taxpayers will be required to pay part of their way. That is a subsidy.
Finally, our freeway between Madison and Milwaukee is already built, is not at capacity, and we do not have excessive travel times between the two cities. This train is a luxury, not a necessity. In a time when our federal and state governments are near bankrupt, we cannot afford to waste our precious tax monies on a redundant transportation system that will be used by a very small percentage of the population.
Bill Marsh writes: "The proponents of this train keep railing about road subsidies. Please let me know how many people in our state don't use roads. We, the citizens of Wisconsin, all use roads, therefor there are no non-users that are subsidizing them. Unlike this train, which will be primarily used by people that can afford to pay their own way on the bus or via their own vehicle. But somehow all taxpayers will be required to pay part of their way. That is a subsidy."
The problem with your analysis is that the Fed typically pays for 80% to 90% of all Interestate Highways, and that means that money for Wisconsin highways does come from people who don't own a car and in many cases, can't even drive one.
Besides, I'm pretty sure that you can find some adults in Wisconsin who don't drive and don't own a car. You can certainly find some Seniors who fit into that category, yet they still pay taxes. And while maybe most kids don't pay taxes, their parents have to shoulder that burden for them, so there is more people in affect being taxed for the roads, even though they don't drive or own a car.
So NO, I'm sorry but the roads are indeed subsidized.
In fact, last year just at the Federal level, every man, women, and child paid $112 towards the highways to help you out. This train will only require you to pay $1.77 a year, worst case scenario.
The freeway between Madison & Milwaukee nears capacity during several weekends per year. While the overwhelming majority of us Badgers use Wisconsin roads, trains will provide an indirect benefit, by giving us one more choice of how to get to either Saint Paul, or Milwaukee, or Chicago, or even to catch a connecting train in Chicago! Highways do not offer us such a choice. Mr. Welke, while I think you raise god points, we certainly aren't finished here This should be the starting point. Let's get the train up and running so that it is already in operation when we inevitably need it.
Mr. Welke,
My point regarding the cost of the zoo interchange is that 350,000 cars use it per day. How many people are going to use the train? The point is, of course we are going to allocate more money to things people actually use instead of things you wish people would use.
The train can only be a success if enough people deem it as a better option than travel by alterntive means. As someone who visits clients in the Madison area on a weekly basis I do not see the train saving me either time or money and I will not use it. I imagine other people will make that same calculation. If the train even has a chance at saving a traveler time Madison would need to greatly improve their commuter options. That means more bus line and possibly commuter rail. One thing you'll notice if you go to places like San Francisco, Portland or Seattle ( contrary to your point, I do actually get out) is that buses seem to be passing you constantly on their main roads. We never had to wait very long for a both in any of those cities.
I'm not an anti-train type of person. I've used the train nearly 100% of the time I've been to Chicago over the last ten years. While the Amtrak has seen an uptick over that time you can still easily get a seat at the prime times of day and they still seem to be running exactly the same routes as they were 10 years ago. If trains are the wave of the future I would expect that Amtrak would constantly be adding service. If anything, a high speed line offered along the Hiawatha route would be worth exploring if it could shave 30 minutes or so off the travel time.
The question of ecomonic development is one that must also be answered. It's sort of a chicken and the egg type of question. Does rail spur economic development or does economic development spur rail. I believe it is the latter. Simply put, Milwaukee and Madison are not densely populated and both cities have spread out their development. This has made both cities very easy to navigate by car and if people have the option they will stick to their cars. However, if traffic gridlock becomes a problem or if the cost of driving becomes much higher people will look for other options. Of course this can happen in the future, but I don't see it happening right now in our area.
Re-Burden: We agree on something. Very frail seniors probably are not using roads except for doctor appointments. However, they are indirectly using them as supplies and services they use are primarily being delivered by road users.
You could also include people living in urban areas that only use mass transit, but mass transit is heavily subsidized, including using tax money collected from road users. That is about it for those not using roads.
But just to make things easier, let us get rid of transportation subsidies. Let us have road users pay for roads and train users pay for trains. Train supporters would never go for that because they know their true costs per user are astronomical and their deal of having other people pay for the true cost of their transportation is a sweet one. In other words, trains have a huge subsidy per rider because they are economically inefficient. High costs and not enough users.
PS-RE-Portland-Boston analogy: The Portland metro area is about the size of the Madison metro area. The Boston Metro area is approximately three times larger than the Milwaukee metro area. Downtown Boston is a significantly larger office market than downtown Milwaukee, and thus is a much larger commuter and business draw. Finally, their are a number of stops between Boston and Portland in communities with moderate populations, something there isn't between Madison and Milwaukee.
What some forget is that EVERYBODY used roads in one way or another. And everybody pays for the roads thru either gas taxes or state and federal taxes. The problem I have is that not everybody, and in my opinion a very small select group will use the trains. So why make everybody pay for them? Especially how costly they are.
Bill Marsh writes: "Re-Burden: We agree on something. Very frail seniors probably are not using roads except for doctor appointments. However, they are indirectly using them as supplies and services they use are primarily being delivered by road users."
And they are already paying for that indirect use of the roads; no need to tax them so that car drivers can drive their cars. The non-users are paying for anything that they get via a road through a little thing called a shipping fee. On large items you'll see it right on your bill. For small things, like food, the Store pays for it and then includes it into the price of what you buy.
Yes, some small argument could be made for taxing homes & apartments for the local streets such that emergency vehicles can reach people in need.
But when it comes to the Interstate Highways, a non-driver is already paying for any usage that they might make of that road via shipping fees. Additionally, if only trucks were allowed on the highways, we wouldn't need 6, 8, 10, and 12 lane highways. All those extra lanes are for car drivers. Get rid of that, and we'd be able to stop the subsidies for the roads.
And I'm not suggesting that we actually want to go down that path; only that car owners are being subsidized!
Bill Marsh writes: "But just to make things easier, let us get rid of transportation subsidies. Let us have road users pay for roads and train users pay for trains. Train supporters would never go for that because they know their true costs per user are astronomical and their deal of having other people pay for the true cost of their transportation is a sweet one. In other words, trains have a huge subsidy per rider because they are economically inefficient. High costs and not enough users."
We already know that this is not true. When the price of gas soared in 2008, people cut back on driving and turned to transit, both bus and rail. Making everyone pay fully for their transit would only drive them right back to the trains. They left the trains years ago because subsidized roads made driving cheaper. Coupled with the freedom, people went to cars. Make cars more expensive again, they'll go back to trains & buses.
And trains are not the most heavily subsidized form of transit. Aside from demand response services, buses are generally the most subsidized form of transit in this country.
According to the National Transit Database, on average in this country it costs 40 cents to move 1 person 1 mile on commuter rail and heavy rail (subway's & El's). To do the same job with light rail costs 60 cents per passenger mile.
On a bus, it costs 80 cents to move 1 passenger 1 mile. And that doesn't include the costs of the roads, and public agencies don't even pay fuel taxes. So fixing the roads falls on taxpayer shoulders.
Now with those costs per passenger mile in mind, again turning to the NTD we find that rail riders pay 52.8% of their costs on average and bus riders only pay 26.3% of their costs.
So as a taxpayer, wouldn't you prefer to pay less for rail?
Sparky Phifer writes: "What some forget is that EVERYBODY used roads in one way or another. And everybody pays for the roads thru either gas taxes or state and federal taxes. The problem I have is that not everybody, and in my opinion a very small select group will use the trains. So why make everybody pay for them? Especially how costly they are"
Sparky,
As I pointed out to Bill in a post just above, everybody is already paying for their use of the roads via other methods. Call a taxi, you pay the taxi. The taxi driver buys the gas and pays the fuel tax. Order a sofa for delivery; you get charged a shipping fee. That shipping fee goes to the truck driver, who in turn buys the fuel for his truck and pays for the road.
And if you're worried about how costs are going to affect your taxes, worry about the $69.616 Billion the Fed spent on the highways last year. It caused your taxes to go up a lot more than the $800 Million for this train.
RE-Burden- You are correct, road users pay for roads. Train users do not pay for trains. And the argument isn't about which form of mass transit is most subsidized- we know they are all heavily subsidized by non-users, unlike roads. But please point out which substantial group of non-road users are subsidizing road users other than a few frail seniors (who probably are not paying substantial taxes) and urban dwellers that don't leave their immediate urban area (but are using heavily subsidized mass transit).
As to people turning to transit when gas prices jumped- How many households sold their cars and used only mass transit? I can't recall reading about a mass exodus from car ownership to mass transit. Please provide some numbers.
PS- I'm glad you mentioned freedom and that fact people desire to use cars when they have the choice. It is typical big nanny government/liberal think to want to make people do something they clearly don't want to do, because somehow the powers that be know better. Let road users pay for roads and let train users pay for trains and we will see what the people choose.
Bill Marsh writes: "RE-Burden- You are correct, road users pay for roads. Train users do not pay for trains. And the argument isn't about which form of mass transit is most subsidized- we know they are all heavily subsidized by non-users, unlike roads. But please point out which substantial group of non-road users are subsidizing road users other than a few frail seniors (who probably are not paying substantial taxes) and urban dwellers that don't leave their immediate urban area (but are using heavily subsidized mass transit)."
I never said that road user's pay for roads. Again, we already know that's not true. When the Fed pulls $34.5 Billion out of the General fund for roads, it is quite apparent that road users failed to pay for the roads. There is no debating this fact! Anytime money comes out of the General fund for something, it is a subsidy.
And when that $34.5 Billion would have paid to run every bus, train, subway, ferry, monorail, and demand response service in the US it's quite clear that the "heavy subsidy" went to the roads. Because again, that $34.5B is just the Federal subsidy to roads, every state, county, and city further added to that total.
So the only thing getting a "heavy subsidy" was the roads. They got more money than any other form of transit!
Bill Marsh writes: "As to people turning to transit when gas prices jumped- How many households sold their cars and used only mass transit? I can't recall reading about a mass exodus from car ownership to mass transit. Please provide some numbers."
I never said that people sold their cars, only that they stopped driving them as much or drove them to a bus/train and parked them.
Bill Marsh writes: "PS- I'm glad you mentioned freedom and that fact people desire to use cars when they have the choice. It is typical big nanny government/liberal think to want to make people do something they clearly don't want to do, because somehow the powers that be know better. Let road users pay for roads and let train users pay for trains and we will see what the people choose."
I don't want to force people to do anything. But I do want to give them something very American, the freedom to choose between driving and the train. Only you seem to wish to squash the freedom of choice. You've already decided that they can't have a train. And all because you don't want to part with $1.77 per annum.
Yet you are perfectly happy to accept the $112 that every man, women, and child provided for your roads, along with the local subsidies too.
And again, if both pay fully, we already know that trains will win at least in areas where they are available. When gas prices shot up, the number of miles driven in this country annually went down. The number of people on buses and trains went up!
Here's an example of how the rest of the country sees what's happening in Wisconsin..http://bit.ly/bTIxT1
Megan, one person's opinion (he literally worked for treehugger.com) does not represent the country. This debate is happening in every major metro area in our country for many good reasons.
Alan, your opinions are heartfelt. Your numbers however are apples and oranges. The $112 and $1.77 are based on "every man, woman and child" in the state. While the population base maybe accurate for the road system; the population base for the rail is roughly 800 to 1000 rail users per year based on one of the examples above.
But let's call the number 10,000 (way high; but let's say). Then operating cost alone is $9,000,000 / 10,000 = $900 per person or roughly 8 times more expensive. Bare in mind that does not include the investment to put the train in place or the long term upkeep. The road system number is and "all in" number if I understand your analysis.
This train their planning to build is not high speed like the picture would suggest. And to retro fit the tracks and local cities to handle a true high speed train would be a complete retro fit and probably another 1 billion. I think more people would support this if it wasn't a minor step, but a full step forward.
Bob Johnson writes: "Megan, one person's opinion (he literally worked for treehugger.com) does not represent the country. This debate is happening in every major metro area in our country for many good reasons."
Actually "this" debate isn't happening in every metro area. It is happening in a few places, but most areas are already proceeding with their plans. Two areas already have agreements with the host RR's to start work, and one has actually started work. And California of course approved their high-speed project by a majority vote. Both California and Florida are also very close to breaking ground their systems.
By the way, back in 2008 there were 32 ballot initiatives for rail, most of which actually included tax increases. Voters went to the polls and approved 24 of the 32 giving rail a 75% approval rating. And one of the losers, St. Louis, woke up this year and approved a tax increase to help fund their transit system. That includes both trains & buses, as well as demand response.
Bob Johnson writes: "Alan, your opinions are heartfelt. Your numbers however are apples and oranges. The $112 and $1.77 are based on "every man, woman and child" in the state. While the population base maybe accurate for the road system; the population base for the rail is roughly 800 to 1000 rail users per year based on one of the examples above.
But let's call the number 10,000 (way high; but let's say). Then operating cost alone is $9,000,000 / 10,000 = $900 per person or roughly 8 times more expensive. Bare in mind that does not include the investment to put the train in place or the long term upkeep. The road system number is and "all in" number if I understand your analysis."
Bob, first that road number isn't all in. That's just Federal money. Second, that's not a fair way to judge things. Until and unless every driver uses every road, your analysis is flawed. And I've no doubt that the number of passengers that you're proposing is way low.
However, the entire point of my analysis was in response to those saying that they can't afford it. Anyone who can sit there saying I can't afford $1.77 per year for a train, while handing over $112 for our roads, isn't worried about their taxes. They're just looking for an excuse.
Finally, that $800M is a 40 year investment. An investment that will also help freight trains within this state too, further reducing longer distance truck traffic. Now I grant you, as noted by Sparky, that obtaining higher speeds will require further investment. But even if that never happens, freight and passenger services will have been improved with that $800M investment.
As for long term upkeep, that's included in the estimated worst case scenario of the $7.5 Million needed subsidy. I used the $10M figure that opponents have rounded up to in their efforts to make things sound worse when I did my $1.77 calculation, so the reality is it will actually be less. But my point still stands, if one is worried about one's taxes, worry about the roads. Not the train.
A note to all of you freaks who think you can somehow stop the train. Dream on. It's a go. They're building the rail cars already right here in Wisconsin. And they are very cool, too:
http://www.wisbusiness.com/index.Iml?Article=209651